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tv   The Daily Rundown  MSNBC  July 9, 2012 9:00am-10:00am EDT

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fight intended to draw contrast by baiting them into extending tax cuts. here's obama's campaign senior adviser robert gibbs this morning on today. >> i think it's time to pay down some of our debts and deficits by doing away with the breaks showered on millionaires and billionaires and give certainty to middle class families. >> they will push in a series of interviews at the local stations on the white house and on the road tomorrow when he travels to cedar rapids, iowa and visits the home of a couple who make a combined $82,000 a year and would face an additional tax burden if the existing rates expire. the president's proposal puts them at odds with republicans who want an extension of all the tax cuts. here is mitch mcconnell sunday. >> we ought to extend the current rates for another year with a hard requirement to get
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through comprehensive tax reform. >> republicans are expected to pass the legislation before the end of the month that would preserve the tax cuts. today's move puts the president out of step with congressional democrats including nancy pelosi and chuck schumer who want to move it to a million dollars on the next front. the question is, is this the president's opening offer? do we draw a line in the sand and promise to veto any legislation that extends all of the tax cuts or does it pave the way for a full one-year extension for all of them and decoupling of the middle class tax cuts from the high end would be what would define victory for the white house. we have been down this road before. the president campaigned against the tax cuts for the owner in 2008 and campaigned against them in 2010. they all got extended temporarily as part of the larger deal. the question is, does he make a
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veto threat? is there teeth to this policy change? anything that sets up republicans and mitt romney is defenders of the wealthy does fit in with what the obama message machine was about. it was clearly a strategic decision. democrats launched a coordinated assault on romney on personal wealth. >> i have never known of a switch back on building an american bridge and create american jobs. >> either get a swiss bank account or you believe the swiss frank is stronger than the american dollar. >> the slogan is believe in america. it should be business in bermuda. >> debbie wassermann schultz who hadn't brought it up asked to change the subject to make the point. >> i want to raise one other point. >> quickly.
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>> i really like to see mitt romney release more than one year of tax records. people ask themselves why does an american businessman need a swiss bank account? >> there were not many romney surrogates out to defend him, but they responded in a statement, the obama campaign's latest unfounded character assault on mitt romney is unseemly and disgusting he pays every dime of taxes he oh,s and gives to charitable donations. how far the campaign is willing to go with suggestions that romney has done something improper in financial dealings. you suggesting that mitt romney is guilty of a felony? >> nobody has an idea because the only person with a tax return is mitt romney. >> it is a distraction from the real discussion. we are not talking about jobs. >> release the tax returns and
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put all this to rest. >> it's not a coincidence they allowed romney to change the subject on a tough week for his campaign. they unloaded on him personally. the economic numbers have taken a dip and they ramped up attacks. that's clear how long the romney campaign will be able to leave the attacks on his personal wealth and his business career largely unanswered. he said it's distracting from the economy, this stuff is taking a poll and if you sit out there and leave it fully unchallenged. after a week of vacation in new hampshire, he returned to the fund-raising, holding three high dollar evens and getting a lot more attention. there is a $50,000 per person at the home and literally drew protesters by air, land, and sea. protesters stormed the beach chanting i singing and waving
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signs that said romney has a koch problem. he does plenty of high dollar fund-raisers of his own. two scheduled for today at the mandarin oriental here in washington. quotes like this one from a romney donor outside of revlon chairman's state don't help him dispel the narrative. i don't think the common person is getting it. we've got the message, but my college kid, the baby-sitters and the nails ladies, everybody whose got the right to vote. if you are lower income you are not as educate and two, they don't understand how it works. the high dollar events have an upside. they reported that they campaigned romney victory fund and the rnc rate combined $106 million in june. republicans believe that ultimately the election will be a referendum on economic policy.
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so much so, here's speaker boehner making news by making that point a bit ham handedly at a june 30th fund-raiser in west virginia. you can make me love mitt romney. he said no and said the following. mitt romney has some friends, relatives and fellow mormons. some people that are going to vote for him. that's not what the election is going to be about. it's a referendum on the president's failed policies. asked to respond from the rnc chair, he hasn't always been wild about his support for romney and a bit more refusive. >> a lot of people who know mitt romney will really, really like him and think he's an enormously generous guy. he has given incredible amounts of money to charity. there is a lot to love. the election will be a referendum on obama's policies. >> there you have it. the boehner romney thing, when
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this campaign got started they assumed boehner would be most comfortable with romney at the top of the ticket. a lot of concerns that romney is allowing this wealth message, if you will. to get ahold a little bit making them look out of touch with the middle class. it's political ad vote week on capitol hill. house republicans have scheduled a series of votes like repealing health care and a new defense budget that will be fodder for the november election. as we discussed, the white house is firing back calling for an extension on tax cuts. with me now is correspondent luke russert. let's talk about the scheduling of votes that are literally being conducted for tv ads and direct mail pieces. >> correct. we have seen these and they are so important to be away from the election day. the that will get a lot of buzz
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is the full repeal of president obama's signature achievement. republicans say this is the 31st time they repealed the law. every time they repeal, they count it as full repeal. what they will try to frame the message here, if you vote, not to repeal the president's health care law, you are voting for a tax increase. they are taking away justice john roberts, this is a penalty that is a tax and try to put that at the forefront. that's interesting. there is the debate within team romney. the house republicans and even senate republicans will be anyone that supports the health care law is not only supportinging this that they are retiring, but a tax increase. democrats say they have done this before. they feel that people when they get this law end up liking it. the defense votes. we are going hear republicans try to push the white house on
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saying what would be specifically cut within this defense sequestration types of bills. you heard of leon panetta saying it decimates the military. i spoke to an operative that said this is going for norfolk, virginia and going for florida that have all the naval bases. they are going to try to make this a military vote in terms of national defense. also about economics and how it hurts jobs and those types of states. >> i have seen some of the initial reaction from congressional republican leaders on the president's opening bid, if you will, on the bush tax cuts. connell is talking about the president announcing he is talking for a tax hike on small business owners which is where they go when they talk about the wealthy. what more should we expect to hear. >> i spoke to a leadership aide and they said bring it on. they are happy to have the fight again. for two reasons. chuck schumer and nancy pelosi
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said why don't you move it up to a million. they don't like the president doing this at $250 because a million is a lot easier. you tie romney to being a millionaire. it's a lot easier to do. they will bring back comments that bill clinton made to preserve the economy. they said they had this fight again and they are happy to do it more time. they will use comments by other democrats primarily as the way of pushing back on it. >> this has been the problem for the president all along. if you are united in their own -- that's been a point of contention between schumer and the white house for two years. luke russert reporting on the capitol hill moves. thank you, sir. coming up, romney's risky move and he is planning to leave the u.s. in the heat of the presidential campaign. how does the trip to israel play at the polls?
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plus, the president's edge. new numbers that decide this election. we will show you why the ads do manage. first a look at the president's schedule and mitt romney's schedule which we will start doing. we know what the president is up to. his big deal. you know, those farmers, those foragers, those fishermen.... for me, it's really about building this extraordinary community. american express is passionate about the same thing. they're one of those partners that i would really rely on whether it's finding new customers, or, a new location for my next restaurant. when we all come together, my restaurants, my partners, and the community amazing things happen. to me, that's the membership effect. trick question.
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today un envoy kofi annan said he reached an agreement on an approach to maybe end the violence in syria, but the
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recent history leaves a cloud of uncertainty over the country. let's talk to two experts here. robin wright and distinguished the scholar at the woodrow wilson center. we want to talk about romney and foreign policy and politics a bit. kofi annan said they agree on an approach which means it failed. >> i'm sure it's going to work this time unlike the previous 19 attempts to get to work. he is playing the un obviously. he is playing the entire west i think in some ways. you sawhillry clinton say a couple of days ago -- >> that was a huge thing for her to say about russia and china. >> she is talking, yes, absolutely. it's all rhetoric. just rhetoric. on the assad regime, the same is running under the hour glass.
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sometime not on his side and time seems to be on his side. >> we were just saying it's big grains of sand, but how much is this about showing something like this publicly to give the russians and the chinese something to grab on to? this failed, okay, we tried. is that what it's about? >> it's a long-term process and the thing that worries the rugs is what happens next. assad is in real trouble and may not survive this. the more draconian sanctions are trying to force him and nudge him out. because there is such deep opposition with division within the syrian opposition. they don't speak with one voice. you have the exiles and the national council and the coordination. they are not interesting to sit down either. the problem is not just the regime, but the fact that unlike ribbia where huh a that you can
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talk to, this is one place where it's hard to find. >> something jumped out at me. trying to blame others for his problems, blaming the americans and blaming the jews and blaming -- the usual suspects. he had not been doing that much before. is that a sign he feels like he is use ag i grip? >> it's a go to place. >> usually the last minute. >> there is a wonderful alliance that they are proposing lining up. zionists and al qaeda because they coordinate the activities. it's sort of typical externalization of blame. i don't know if it marks or not. >> let's 55 on on the to the reason why i booked you guys. the mitt romney foreign policy trip. the olympics. that's a domestic play, but he
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will do the speech in israel. perhaps have a meeting there with netanyahu and make a speech in poland which is probably of all the eastern european much more in line with the republican point of view. >> probably. the most important part of the trip is israel. that resonates domestically and plays off issues like iran. something the romney campaign focuses on more than any other issue. romney said that under obama, iran will get the bomb and under romney they will not. >> that's the line in the sand. >> he hasn't provided specifics about what he would do or what would be more effective than what the administration has done. the only big option on the table is whether you bomb iran to try to take the nuclear weapon. >> i will come back to that, but the polish piece is highly
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significant. he talks about russia as america's principal adversary. >> they're agree. they are trying to exploit somewhat of a caricature of the obama administration, but exploit the idea that obama is soft on adversaries and hard on allies. obama recently referred to the polish death camps. it was a big flub. the polish government went crazy. there were nazi death camps in poll ant. this is a thumb in the eye of the administration. >> you just were saying that we don't have a lot of meat on the bone of what the foreign policy would look like. if you looka the advisers. he is adopting the talking points and whether that's his world view or not, he is
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surrounding himself with these folks. >> absolutely. that's one of the reasons you take the hard line positions and we want to push democracy in the region at the time the mideast is going through tremendous transition. i don't think he captured an issue that resonates with the american public. as the talks with the iranians over their disputed program get into more trouble, they may not have a fourth round. you get the issue back. >> you get the one issue he has been the most. >> does he begin to push the white house to do something more mellow. >> you talked about romney and you don't see him being more militant than obama has been. obama has been fair. it's all rhetoric. obama has been the who has created the sanctions that pushed iran into a corner. obama's position is not different. we will not allow iran to get a nuclear weapon. >> that's the difference.
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always good to have you both. we covered a lot of ground. coming up, the rangle race. is it over or not and the fight to hold on to his seat and that recount of sorts. first the trivia question on what u.s. bill you can see at the white house. that's right. what u.s. bill can you see the white house on? tweet me the answer and the first correct answer will get the follow monday for us. i am confused by the trivia question too. we'll be right back. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 let's talk about fees. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 there are atm fees. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 account service fees. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 and the most dreaded fees of all, hidden fees. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 at charles schwab, you won't pay fees on top of fees.
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american troops killed in a roadside in afghanistan. the taliban is claiming responsibility for the blast that occurred near a nato u.s. military base in the eastern part of afghanistan south of kabul. a white house aide said it's likely president obama will meet with egyptian president mohammed morsi in september. the news comes as william burns met with morsi on sunday. egypt provides $1.3 billion a year in military aid to the country. some reports that morsi and the president could meet at the white house during the week. charlie rangle might be declared the riner of the democratic primary two weeks after the polls close. they are expected to concede for a second time today after the
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board of elections count on the paper ballots that gave rangle a 1,000 vote edge. passing the threshold that would have triggered an automatic recount. the first openly gay member of congress is the first to enter into a same-sex marriage. he married his long time partner over the weekend in boston, massachusetts. patrick officiated and frank is retiring at the end of this term. up next, powerful political partners or conservative complications. how tea party activists and evangelical christians can swing for or against mitt romney or be a painful thorn in his side. president obama will welcome congress back to washington with tough talk on taxes. he has done it before. does the word veto enter his vocabulary? you are watching "the daily rundown."
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today's deep dive. the tea party and white evangelical voters. conservative groups who are allies at the surface and forged an interesting and powerful partnership. the tea party focuses on fiscal responsibility and limited government. white evangelicals on social issues. white evangelical voters have been part of the conversation for a decade. 78% for george w. bush in 2004 and they were a full 23% of the electorate. that grew in 2008, but senator obama made a dent in an otherwise big gap. the current president won over 60% of the remaining electorate and the tea party in 2009 and 2010 with the leaders inside and outside having an evangelical background. will they show up in droves for
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mitt romney in november? he will trouble with both groups and a laundry list grab their attention until they settled on rick santorum for nearly a dozen victories. good news for the president's oppone opponent, they showed his moerm an faith didn't prevent supporters from voting for him and his faith is more accepted when it links to christianity are explained. a stronger network of tea party conservatives prepared to mobilize voters for a close election and we will talk more about the groups with david brody for the christian broadcasting network and the author of a new book called the tea va njelicals. it was an unholy appliance for a while. evangelicals and the tea party were not talking about the same
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issues. for a long time there was anxiety amongst some leaders saying the moral issues were being pushed aside. >> what's interesting, they have a lot in common. there is a sense here that evangelicals are out to get the tea party move am. it's not true. about 60% of the tea party is social conservatives. 50 to 60% are conservative christian. if there was an attempt to pull off the movement, it would happen. >> it goes to the other 40%. what is the mix of social issues and not? i think about the voters. the various summits that there were and the complaint would be about mitt romney, he is not talking about moral issues and what made rick santorum appealing at the end is he was somebody that had credibility because he was trying to marry the groups because the thought was you win a majority of both
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of them. >> something about look how far santorum went because of the message. >> he needed the social message to be married. >> that's right. he was able to do it. that's one of the reasons why i point out why christians are breaking bread. they are able to combine fiscal and social issue. it doesn't have to be in marriage. we are talking about the morality and a good person will leave inheritance to their children's children. they will take it from a biblical world view. >> mitt romney's -- seems like he has the same like affair with these group of voters that speaker boehner was speaking about. it was that quote. it was interesting of all days to have you on for this, here's speaker boehner saying mitt romney had friends, relatives and fellow form ones who will vote for him, but that's not what the election is about. being anti-obama motivates the
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voters. do they have to get to a point where they fall in like? >> they are not going to necessarily be there completely with romney, but this is a raw vote issue. whether it's 73% that was mccain's number and bush had a bigger number. it's about raw vote total. can folks like this faith and freedom coalition, can they get more folks to the poll? ralph reid believes he can get 3 million more to the polls. if that's the case, that puts a different spin on what could happen potentially. it's more about not the folks that are going to actually show up and vote for romney. the santorum and the cain folks, they will vote for romney. that's not the issue. the question is, will they bring a friend and will they mobilize? i think that's important.
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>> does romney have to do another mormon speech? >> you came out and asked. he is not going to. that has been that. >> there still some evangelicals who wish he would make a better case. >> i don't think he needs to, but here's what he needs to do. he can go generic on this if he wants, but to connect with voters and has a bishop there within the mormon church. he was able humanize and council women out of abortions and a lot of this is extremely important for him to connect with voters. he won't go there. >> is there a chunk who won't vote for mitt romney sf. >> small. >> the numbers are around 15% or
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so. having said that, let's look geographically and not to stereotype, but the anti-mormon on tingent may be situated and states that romney will win anyhow. whether or not it becomes the mormon factor, i am not convinced. >> if that's not the talk. >> you coined the term and turned it into a book. congratulations. realize as you say the margins party, but a chunk of the electorate. we're digging into the battle ground polls and looking ahead to the big announcements on tax cut is say deja vu all over again. first the white house soup of the day, it's not just eat your vegetable day, but eat your
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♪ power surge, let it blow your mind. [ male announcer ] for fruits, veggies and natural green tea energy... new v8 v-fusion plus energy. could've had a v8. > so the election, we know where it matters in it matters in a dozen states. right now another fresh evidence in a virtual tie between the president and mitt romney in the key battle ground states. with my panel, susan paige bureau chief for "usa today" and clarence paige and do we do the standard paige group. i are married, but not to each other. i want to start with the numbers. the battle ground states. you use the same 12 as we do.
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>> they must be right. >> there other national polls out there. >> you guys are doing the same dozen. another outlet that is doing it. in what you found you have obama narrowly had 47-45, you tested the theory that we had that came out of our polling to see how effective is the advertising between the two candidates. swing state voters, 82%. non-swing state is 62%. there is a lot of advertising going on. the same percentage of people have been contacted by the campaign. 35% in swing states. participating in the campaign, more people say they are participating and dan in the swing states. you look at the numbers, it's clear that more people that you see the obama negative ads, more people feel like they have seen them. you are seeing that you have
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seen the highest number here has seen a negative romney ad. >> and they have worked. just 8% say that the ads change their view of the candidates. not a lot, but in a close election. >> the voters seem to -- >> they admit they have changed their views and of those, 76% of backing barack obama. just 16% mitt romney. that indicates that mitt romney is being defined with these voters in a negative way by negative ads. >>a the romney campaign spent, but don't dispute the numbers. it's casual democrat who is didn't know they didn't like mitt romney now. they haven't seen movement among the real swing voters. >> it's clear that the romney campaign feels they have been hurt by the attacks. there is no doubt about that. when they look at the macro numbers, they look at the swing states and see 47-45, the
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president is under 50. we are within two points. there is a lot more to play out and a weak economy keeps cutting into the president and think at this point they are in pretty good shape compared to where they might be given the assault they have been under. >> look at it in reverse. you look at the climate and are you surprised that romney is not ahead? >> only in that romney is not the incumbent. obama has that advantage and the fact that romney is being defined out there. people don't know him as well as obama. that's the reason why we are seeing that movement among those who are already engaged. in other words, the democrats who are soft. we are not seeing a big movement because romney himself has too many unknowns around him for the voters who are persuadable. it's not that big of a slice by the way. about 10% undecided. they are probably not going to
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decide around labor day or after. >> what has been interesting about the sunday was this -- friday we have the jobs report and the obama campaign pivoted back to attacking romney. it was coordinated. you couldn't look at the sunday shows and not see. they wanted to go after the offshore accounts and all of this stuff. at what point does romney have to push back from replaining who he is? >> aren't you surprised after the bain attacks and back when he was running in massachusetts that they do not have a more effective response to the attack on what happened with companies at bain? >> the questions or the personal wealth. >> how many people did people say swiss bank accounts this weekend? it was on a repeating loop. they need to push back and need a more effective answer. i am surprised at the campaign that has been very well run that they haven't had one.
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>> it is a head scratcher and one of the deals that we are testing the theory. stewart stevens said this will be about the economy and romney will make his case at the debates. if he loses, a lot of people are going to look back and said he allowed himself to get the fund. >> we know this is crucial if not decisive period in the campaign. when you look at the totality of all the polls, one of the things that is interesting is a lot of stuff that happened over six or eight weeks and overall the polls have not moved a lot. you can see internal movement and different groups. you can see that romney may be taking on water with the margins. it's still at the margins and i think if you are the romney campaign, rather than try to pivot and put yourself on the -- make yourself even more on the defensive. their feeling is let's keep pushing forward on the main argument we want to make. >> one of the things that could
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happen this week, one of the things that if it's going to happen early, it will happen this week or not until after. romney picks his running mate. coincidentally, the senator from ohio who was the first name on everybody's list happened to go to new hampshire. >> pure coincidence. >> ohioans love new hampshire. >> maybe mitt romney was there at the same time. here's what portman said in new hampshire when asked about it. >> they are looking for a better way. they are saying that the manufacturing numbers and confidence taking a dip that the policies that president obama enacted in congress are not working. >> a little audio issue there. mostly on a college tour. rob portman and tim pawlenty, it
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becomes a surprise. >> seems like they keep pointing back and everybody has their favorites. like marco rubio or someone like that. for a number of different reasons as far as the personality wise as well as portman having a great record on those issues and republicans love it. he would seem to be a natural. >> one thing people forget is that portman comes across as the governing pick. he would be an effective potential chief of staff on the ticket. >> clearly he is kind of like romney. comfortable that way. he is ready to be president. there wouldn't be a question about his qualifications to be a heartbeat away. the biggest rap and he comes from a great state, but is he dull? maybe that's not a big start.
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we had a lot of excitement with sarah palin, but that didn't work out. >> timing-wise. he has the olympics and his foreign policy trip. >> he has a lot of work to do to get ready for the foreign trip. >> for he picked his new running mate, they would want to barn storm together for a week. >> yeah. you have the tiling worked out better. >> if it's not in the next three or four hours. see how this isn't until after the olympics. >> when we come back we'll talk tax cut politics. trivia time. we ask on what u.s. bill, paper currency, and i apologize for not using the word currency in the trivia question the first time, can you see the white house? the answer comes out of most atms, the $20 bill. features andrew jackson on the front and the white house on the back. we'll be right back. you're watching "the daily rundown." [ jennifer ] better. stronger. believe. happier. healthier.
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bring back the panel. tax cut politics. the president's going to say something today that he has said every day for -- he said for six years, that he basically -- the implication he wants to let the tax cuts on the wealthy -- bush tax cuts expire but he's trying to do this whole, well, let's extend bush tax cuts a year. is he going to be taken seriously on this tax cut if he doesn't issue a veto threat when he issues the tax cuts? >> probably. he'll have trouble if he doesn't make the veto -- >> you feel he has to make a veto? >> he has to draw a firm irline and they've implicitly said, we're going to extend it, won't do it again, they've said that over and over but there's an issue about the economy he has to think about going into the end of the year. this is clearly for political purposes but the larger question
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is what's the right thing to do for the economy. >> susan page, chuck schumer and nancy pelosi have been public about the idea they wish the line were $1 million. >> yeah. >> it's harder to decouple that. you know, you basically have to redid the tax code, have you to redefine it, number one. number two, does that just give the republicans the opening to say, a-ha, democrats aren't on the same page on that? >> because democrats aren't on the same page. maybe they won't issue a vee to you because they don't want to veto this. if it comes down to it, do they want taxes to go up for everybody? >> they extend them all? >> that is a -- extend them all for a while while economy continues to be fragile. >> clarence, you go through this, one thing we've -- we don't do a lot of is study, did the tax cuts work? what they said they were supposed to do. you'll have those on the right that say, well, you have no idea. we would have had a real recession in the earlier part of
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the last decade. >> right. >> they have not been for the bush tax cuts. you look at it in totality, this isn't an impressive economic -- we have no impressive economic growth based on the bush tax cuts. >> that's right. well, as long as the economy is doing poorly, everybody will be pointing fingers at some reason why it's not working and republicans and democrats can both put it through their lens and say, this is why we're not seeing a recovery. i think this is why obama needs now to draw a line as far as the tax cuts are concerned because his own base are losing faith in him if he can't -- >> shameless plug, clarence, you first. >> we know about the supreme court, overturned the stolen dollar act four minute before the obama carried, nobody noticed. this is very upsetting for a lot of people. me included. military times has come up with a response.
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militarytimes.com, you can go there and see who won a medal and who didn't. >> marie tillman has a new book out, the letter of dealing with the aftermath of the death of pat tillman, her husband, in afghanistan. she's working with the pat tillman foundation to help returning vets on leadership programs and other things. worth taking a look. >> wonderful reporting over the weekend about fund-raising in the hamptons. "new york times" and l.a. times both had very good stuff. >> that's it for this edition of "the daily rundown." tomorrow on the show we're taking a look into president obama's ad that goes into mitt romney's stance on abortion and planned parenthood. up next, chris jansing. bye-bye. i'm todd santos. boston, cooler temperatures for a number of us here for the
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northeast mid-atlantic as well. d.c. still chances for showers and thunderstorms, especially through the heat of the afternoon. 92 in atlanta with a chance for thunderstorms there. . much of the west dealing with warm temperatures. seattle, 80, quiet conditions. denver a few thunderstorms throughout the day. people have doubts about taking aspirin for pain. but they haven't experienced extra strength bayer advanced aspirin. in fact, in a recent survey, 95% of people who tried it agreed that it relieved their headache fast. visit fastreliefchallenge.com today for a special trial offer.
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he'd like to extension the bush tax cuts. only for people making less than $250,000 a year. >> for millionaires and billionaires, they don't need a tax cut. they're not struggling in this economy. they've done well even as the middle class has shrunk. >> well, it seems like a guaranteed fight with congress. republicans have already staked out their position. they think that in a fragile economy, the bush tax cuts should be extended for everyone. >> you know, what we ought to be doing is extend the current tax rates for another year with a hard requirement to get through comprehensive tax reform one more time. >> dana millbank, washington post columnist. dana, battle lines are drawn. they've been drawn really but where does this go now? >> now they're just drawing them with a sharpie. >> as opposed to an erasable pencil. >> exactly. it's pretty set in stone.
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